Would a helmet help?

Discussion in 'Technical Chat' started by Tom Crispin, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. Tom Crispin

    Tom Crispin Guest

    No life lost, but might this be a rare case where a helmet might
    reduce the severity of a minor head injury?
     
    Tom Crispin, Jan 18, 2011
    #1
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  2. Tom Crispin

    Peter Clinch Guest

    An odd suggestion... did you type what you meant?

    First it seems fairly major, second is helmets will very commonly
    mitigate minor injuries: anytime someone hits a low branch when
    wearing one, for example. That might not happen much on roads, but
    they're not the only places folk ride.

    Pete.
     
    Peter Clinch, Jan 18, 2011
    #2
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  3. Tom Crispin

    PhilO Guest

    Can't say. Quite possibly could have. Might have made it worse.
    I'm sure the paramedic confusing a skull fracture with being drunk
    would not have helped!

    Why do you say rare? Even if you start with a worst cae of overall
    helmets are slightly bad, surely helmets help in lots of cases.

    PhilO
     
    PhilO, Jan 18, 2011
    #3
  4. Tom Crispin

    Tosspot Guest

    Biker dudes man, with spandex, and logos on their helmets and
    everything! Sheesh, for a while I thought *she* was the one with the
    head injury!

    If you're concerned, get one of these

    http://www.shoei-europe.com/uk/products/X-SPIRIT-II

    I have the XR-1000 sadly no longer made, but a very good helmet.
     
    Tosspot, Jan 19, 2011
    #4
  5. Tom Crispin

    Tony Raven Guest

    No life lost, but might his be a rare case where kevlar cycling body
    armour might have saved major injuries?



    Tony
     
    Tony Raven, Jan 19, 2011
    #5
  6. Tom Crispin

    mrc7--urcm Guest

    In message <>
    Perhaps it was risk compensation as a result of wearing helmets and body
    armour that made the other cyclists ride so recklessly and hence cause
    the incident in the first place?

    Mike
     
    mrc7--urcm, Jan 19, 2011
    #6
  7. Tom Crispin

    Matt B Guest

    Although the shooting isn't related to cycling per se, or even to the
    UK, I'll bite and say I'm sure that serious injury might well have been
    averted by such a measure, yes.

    And (attempting to veer back into UK cycling topic matter) I'm also sure
    that if it had happened here there's a chance that that possibility
    would be seized upon by a certain element of the press and used as an
    opportunity to exploit the sympathy that they could drum up for the
    mothers of the victims to (as well as selling more newspapers) temp
    naive road safety campaigners to demand, and publicity hungry
    politicians to attempt to provide, more layers of knee-jerk legislation
    to "solve" the problem. With the likely result of measures which didn't
    tackle the root cause of the problem, and thus creating more
    inconvenience, with no corresponding benefits, for the regular
    conscientious citizen and having little or no effect on the actual
    problem or on wantonly villainous citizens.
     
    Matt B, Jan 19, 2011
    #7
  8. Tom Crispin

    Toom Tabard Guest

    wide white line on at least the lane from which the injured girl
    emerged. From what the friend says it seems they cycled through what
    might have been a stop line at a blind corner. It's not clear what the
    whole signage and marking is and the mother mentions the need for
    education about right-of-way.

    But who is to blame, risk-compensation etc., are not relevant to he
    basic point Tom is making - that someone cycling at reasonable speed
    and having their head banged against a wall would probably have
    benefited from wearing a helmet.

    Toom
     
    Toom Tabard, Jan 19, 2011
    #8
  9. Tom Crispin

    Simon Brooke Guest

    More to the point, would NOT having a cycle path at the bottom of a
    concrete-walled trench help reduce the severity of head injuries? If
    you fall in there, you're more or less certain to get hurt!

    I would have thought, if under the circumstance you'll excuse me
    saying so, that that was a no-brainer. What sort of idiot designed that
    'facility'?

    --
    http://www.journeyman.cc/~simon/ :: PGP public key on home page

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    Simon Brooke, Jan 19, 2011
    #9
  10. Tom Crispin

    Tony Raven Guest

    First from the description of the accident its very difficult to tell
    what the negative consequences of her accident actually were. Yes, she
    knocked herself out for a short time; yes she had a minor fracture at
    the base of the skull which the doctors seemed to be saying was nothing
    important. But there seemed to be a whole lot of trying to make
    something more out of it going on.

    But why stop at helmets? You could equally well say that someone
    cycling and being shot at would have probably benefited from wearing
    body armour. Does it happen? Yes it does. Is it worth doing? Probably
    not because its an unusual event just as Tom acknowledges this is.

    Tony
     
    Tony Raven, Jan 19, 2011
    #10
  11. Tom Crispin

    Mark Guest

    Indeed. It is badly designed in having high walls which obscure
    visibility.

    Given that the victim landed a long way in front of the collision
    (according to the witness) I assume she must have been travelling fast
    at that time.
    idea if a helmet would have helped or not.
    --
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    (='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
    (")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
    posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
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    Mark, Jan 19, 2011
    #11
  12. Tom Crispin

    Phil W Lee Guest

    Not nearly as much as putting a wrecking ball through that concrete
    wall that obstructed the visibility and seems to have been largely
    responsible for the collision in the first place.
    Unfortunately, the video is pretty useless in that it doesn't show
    what the sightline for various parties involved would have been, and
    in particular, if the faster cyclists involved had any warning of the
    blind turning on their left. It's easy to assume that they were going
    much too fast, but without seeing what the view from their approach
    would have been, that might be an unfair assumption. You can see a
    stop line that the girls would have had to cross, but not how much
    they could have seen to their right before doing so - it appears to be
    completely blind.
     
    Phil W Lee, Jan 19, 2011
    #12
  13. Tom Crispin

    Toom Tabard Guest

    If he'd been aware of any reason he might be targetted, then a bullet-
    proof vest might have helped. Similarly, if there is any possiblity of
    a bike accident, then a helmet might help. So might body armour, but
    it might be bit restrictive. The main reason for emphasising brain
    protection is that bones, muscles and flesh have good self-restorative
    healing mechanisms, much better than brain tissue. Also bodily injury
    can frequently be localised unless it it neck or spinal. Brain injury
    can affect the whole cognitive functioning ability or cause extensive
    physical disability, so frequently even the mitigatory aspect of
    helmet protection can make a significant difference to outcome.

    Toom
     
    Toom Tabard, Jan 19, 2011
    #13
  14. Tom Crispin

    Tom Crispin Guest

    I thought it might be a storm drain, with a gap for flood water to
    drain into a lake or river, however, a cursory look at Google maps
    suggests it is here:
    http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?layer=c&cbll=39.987254,-105.251405&cbp=12,158.49,,0,10.32
     
    Tom Crispin, Jan 19, 2011
    #14
  15. Tom Crispin

    Tom Crispin Guest

    My error, I thought the mother described it as minor at 4:35. She
    actually says, 'minute'.
     
    Tom Crispin, Jan 19, 2011
    #15
  16. Tom Crispin

    Tom Crispin Guest

    My elder brother has been sent to Bahrain to co-ordinate the placement
    of British warships off the coast of Somalia with other NATO powers
    and World navies, including the People's Liberation Army.

    Before his deployment he was issued with body armour - including
    helmet. I tried on the body armour. I have also ridden a bike wearing
    a cyclist helmet. Having tried both, I can understand why most people
    consider a cyclist helmet a viable option for cyclists. I cannot
    understand why people might consider body armour to be an equally
    viable option.
     
    Tom Crispin, Jan 19, 2011
    #16
  17. Tom Crispin

    Simon Brooke Guest

    A steel cage completely surrounding the rider seems to be called for. It
    could even be panelled, to provide weather protection. Of course, this
    would be heavy, and hard for the rider to either propel or balance, but
    if you provided it with four wheels to obviate the balance problem and
    an internal combustion engine for propulsion, then surely that would be
    much safer - for everyone.

    [fx: pedals rapidly off, whistling innocently]

    --
    http://www.journeyman.cc/~simon/ :: PGP public key on home page

    ;; USER ERROR: replace user and press any key to continue


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    Simon Brooke, Jan 19, 2011
    #17
  18. Tom Crispin

    Tony Raven Guest

    Unless I have misunderstood it I can't see how they can have been going
    that fast. They had to negotiate a sharp left or right turn with a
    concrete wall straight ahead. Not the sort of thing you sail into at
    any speed. In contrast the injured cyclist obviously didn't stop at the
    stop line and must have had some speed to have been thrown that far down
    the track.

    I found this comment from the Boulder Police spokesperson:

    "She said it's also a "strange situation" because there was likely some
    responsibility on the girls to slow down at the crossing, but "on the
    other hand, if this was a classic vehicle accident the turning vehicle
    would be responsible for yielding."

    It's not clear who was at fault in the Thursday wreck, Huntley said, but
    officers want to talk to the men -- both described as in their 30s,
    wearing Spandex outfits, one with a bald head and the other with brown
    hair. Police might also release composite sketches of the riders,
    Huntley said.

    "We would like to get more information about what happened both from an
    enforcement perspective, and to see what could be done to make that a
    more safe junction" by working with city traffic engineers, Huntley said."
    http://303cycling.com/node/1030

    Tony
     
    Tony Raven, Jan 19, 2011
    #18
  19. Tom Crispin

    Tony Raven Guest

    Would you cycle wearing his helmet rather than a cycle helmet? If not
    why are you considering his body armour rather than the body armour that
    is widely available for cyclists. It may not be up to the same
    standards as military helmets and body armour but the cycling body
    armour will probably be at least as effective against gunshots as
    cycling helmets seem to be against brain injury.

    Tony
     
    Tony Raven, Jan 19, 2011
    #19
  20. Tom Crispin

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Of course there are different values of body armour. As well as
    stuff to stop a loon with an AK47 there are lower grades, including
    the body armour worn by downhill MTBers.

    Having had trouble negoating downhill courses on foot wearing a
    pair of studded fell-shoes I'm not surprised they wear that sort of
    thing... but as you suggest, riding about from A to B in the stuff
    would be quite mad.

    Our oldest (adopted) came to us with helmet, wrist-guards and knee
    and elbow pads. First bike trip he declared it was important to
    wear it all, so on it went. And on to the bike, where it turned
    out the wrist guards made it hard to work the brakes so off they
    came. Very soon afterwards, the knee pads made pedalling a bit
    hard, so off they came. Shortly followed by the elbow pads, which
    made steering a bit uncomfy, and then the lid which made his head a
    bit sweaty. So in a number of meters roughly equal to the number
    of minutes spent getting into it all, all the armour was off. He
    then proceeded to enjoy riding his bike.

    Pete.
     
    Peter Clinch, Jan 19, 2011
    #20
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