status (warning, helmet content)

Discussion in 'Technical Chat' started by Zebee Johnstone, May 28, 2011.

  1. Interesting post from Robin Hanson:
    http://www.overcomingbias.com/2011/05/status-and-glory.html

    He notes that the death rate on Everest is relatively high:
    " During the past 25 years, a period during which a greater percentage
    of moutaineers climbed above 8,000 meters, the death rate for
    non-Himalayan climbers descending via the longer Tibetan northeast
    ridge was 3.4 percent, while on the shorter Nepal route it was 2.5
    percent."

    But there isn't a big cry to ban climbing it.

    "Contrast this to strong widespread feelings that bike helmets should
    be required, even though cyclists suffer only about 7 injuries per
    million miles of biking, and despite serious doubts if helmets help."

    His belief as to why? Relative status.

    "Why do ban activities with very low risks yet celebrate very high
    risk mountain climbing? Status seems the obvious explanation. It
    takes a lot of money to even attempt to climb Everest. We celebrate
    high status risk-takers, and ban low status ones."

    Cycling has, in the last 70 years or so, been for children and those
    too poor to afford cars, and I don't know it ever was high status as
    such.

    Would things like Boris bikes change that? Could it not just be
    numbers, but the kind of people viewed as cyclists, that will change
    driver attitudes?

    Zebee
     
    Zebee Johnstone, May 28, 2011
    #1
    1. Advertisements

  2. Zebee Johnstone

    Simon Mason Guest

    Look at the rise of organised rides like cyclosportives and the sort
    of people who ride in them. A heck of a lot are what could be termed
    the moneyed middle class with the bikes and the gear to match. It
    could be called the new golf, with many high profile people such as
    Alan Sugar, Gerald Ratner, lots of ex footballers like Geoff Thomas
    and Bob Wilson, Adrian Chiles, Jon Snow, James Cracknell, Paul Smith
    (designer fella) and many more raising the profile.
     
    Simon Mason, May 28, 2011
    #2
    1. Advertisements

  3. In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Sat, 28 May 2011 17:45:25 +0100
    That's sport, that's different.... I suspect that organised racing of
    any kind is a different status to "normal" road riding.

    Not simple of course, as I dunno single bods in lycra are treated
    differently, but are groups?

    And would that be because of perceived status, or because it is a
    group and so changes the perceived power dynamic? One bod in car has
    more power than one bod on bike, but feels less powerful over several
    bods on bikes?

    Zebee
     
    Zebee Johnstone, May 28, 2011
    #3
  4. Zebee Johnstone

    Simon Mason Guest

    I don't know about power dynamics, but a driver stuck for hours in
    gridlocked traffic seems pretty powerless to me.
     
    Simon Mason, May 28, 2011
    #4
  5. In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Sat, 28 May 2011 21:56:10 +0100

    Those aren't the ones who are abusing and passing too close though are
    they.

    They may, I suppose, be ones advocating for helmets, but I dunno that
    being stuck in traffic is why they are doing it.

    Zebee
     
    Zebee Johnstone, May 28, 2011
    #5
  6. Zebee Johnstone

    Mike Causer Guest


    A long article which includes this topic, and many other factors, is
    here:
    <http://thinkingaboutcycling.wordpress.com/article-fear-of-cycling/>

    The author's background: "I’m a sociologist by training, and
    currently work at Lancaster Environment Centre, Lancaster University,
    on a project to do with walking and cycling,..."

    Not just a theorist though, his two kids at 7 and 9 are doing TTs and
    European tours already.


    Interesting stuff.



    Mike
     
    Mike Causer, May 28, 2011
    #6
  7. Zebee Johnstone

    Fred2 Guest

    Great article and included links!
    Thanks for posting.
    Fred
     
    Fred2, May 29, 2011
    #7
  8. Zebee Johnstone

    nmm1 Guest

    Well, yes, but it would have been a lot better if he had applied
    more of the rigorous techniques of sociology (and there are some),
    and less of the touchy-feely ones.

    He made quite a few assertions as fact for which there is little
    or no evidence - oh, yes, they are of the category "but everybody
    knows that ...", but that doesn't mean they are actually TRUE.
    However, UNLIKE for many of the pro-helmet papers, they were
    minor and not relied on in his main discussion.

    And there was no attempt at a serious analysis of how any change
    might be made - 20 years' evidence is that the current approaches
    are not working.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.
     
    nmm1, May 29, 2011
    #8
  9. Zebee Johnstone

    Ian Jackson Guest

    Ian Jackson, May 29, 2011
    #9
  10. Zebee Johnstone

    Simon Mason Guest

    Simon Mason, May 29, 2011
    #10
  11. Zebee Johnstone

    Adam Lea Guest

    What did happen to him?
     
    Adam Lea, May 29, 2011
    #11
  12. Zebee Johnstone

    Simon Mason Guest

    He was killed by a drunken driver.
    I used to correspond with him and I loved his writings.

    http://www.kenkifer.com/death.htm
     
    Simon Mason, May 29, 2011
    #12
  13. Zebee Johnstone

    Mark Guest

    It was an interesting article and I don't believe he could have
    tackled everything without it stretching into a book.
    --
    (\__/) M.
    (='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
    (")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
    posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
    everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
     
    Mark, May 31, 2011
    #13
  14. Zebee Johnstone

    nmm1 Guest

    Sigh. That is completely irrelevant to my first point, which was
    a criticism of its accuracy (in minor ways, only). And there was
    a lot of verbiage that could have been rewritten to be a deeper
    analysis, while still being as clear and probably shorter.

    Yes, it was interesting, but not all that much. But I accept that
    my standards are quite high, because I have spent a fair amount of
    time looking into this over the past 30 years. It was assuredly
    one of the more interesting and perceptive articles that I have
    seen, but there wasn't much that isn't well-known among the people
    who have looked into this area.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.
     
    nmm1, May 31, 2011
    #14
  15. Zebee Johnstone

    bugbear Guest

    Yeah - but we (for some value of "we") know about the celebrity
    cyclists. They are, to some extent, unusual.

    Whereas for golf, one can pretty much assume that "high profile" (males)
    play it.

    It's usual.

    BugBear
     
    bugbear, May 31, 2011
    #15
  16. Zebee Johnstone

    Ian Jackson Guest

    To me it read like the intended audience is the kind of middle-tier
    policymaking officials whose minds need to be changed. Its
    contribution is not in itself as a serious piece of exciting new
    sociology, but as a review or summary of the situation, presented in a
    readable and convincing way.
     
    Ian Jackson, May 31, 2011
    #16
  17. Zebee Johnstone

    nmm1 Guest

    I accept that, and I posted assuming that was the intent. But even
    for such an audience, it should not make assertions of fact that
    are merely hypotheses and it should have gone a bit further below
    the surface.

    In particular, the "tribalism" aspect is IMPORTANT, because
    reversing it requires very different approaches than either reality
    (i.e. of danger) or perception do. One of the reasons that I have
    so little time for the current approaches is that they simply
    won't work while that is a major factor. What I can't say for
    certain is how much of a factor it is, and how fast (or whether)
    it is increasing, though I am pretty sure that I can guess, but I
    can say that it's critical to investigate and consider.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.
     
    nmm1, May 31, 2011
    #17
  18. In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Tue, 31 May 2011 14:51:57 +0100
    It's so usual as to be understood to be "where deals are done" and
    "the golf club" understood to be somwhere you need to be a member of
    to meet business people.

    It may well be changing, and it will vary by country, but that's the
    *cultural* meme.

    When you expect people to be hatching deals while cycling, you can say
    cycling is high status.

    Will it ever be? Golf of the high status male variety isn't expected
    to be played well as I understand it. The main thing is you can walk
    (or ride) around and talk in a reasonably private environment. YOu
    can do it when you are 60 and unfit, especially given golf carts.
    (And it isn't clear how many who "golf" actually do...)

    The same can't be said for the sport (as distinct from the activity)
    of cycling.

    Zebee
     
    Zebee Johnstone, May 31, 2011
    #18
  19. Zebee Johnstone

    Rob Morley Guest

    Lots of deals get done down the pub - does that make beer drinking a
    high status sport?
     
    Rob Morley, Jun 1, 2011
    #19
  20. In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Wed, 01 Jun 2011 07:54:26 +0100
    Are they high status deals?

    As distinct from the ones done at expensive restaurants over expensive
    wine?

    Zebee
     
    Zebee Johnstone, Jun 1, 2011
    #20
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.