Red light jumping

Discussion in 'Cycling Archive' started by John Benn, Sep 8, 2012.

  1. John Benn

    John Benn Guest

    A story I read earlier in the local newspaper:

    http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/ne...ce_hunt_cyclist_who_assaulted_pregnant_woman/

    "Police are hunting a cyclist who assaulted a pregnant woman and her partner
    in Thornton Heath. The incident happened on London Road, close to Thornton
    Heath Ponds roundabout, at about 9.15pm on July 1.

    The couple who are in their 20s, were crossing the road at a pedestrian
    crossing near to Barclays Bank, when a cyclist is said to have cycled
    through the red light. The woman shouted at the cyclist who allegedly
    stopped, turned around and assaulted both victims. The woman said she was
    pregnant, but the suspect continued to assault her and her partner. He is
    then believed to have got back on his bike and cycled off towards Norbury."
    ====================================================

    My comments:
    I was sad to read yet again that some cyclists are giving the rest of us a
    bad name. Please can I urge people reading to take extra care at
    light-controlled pedestrian crossings. Please stop at red lights. If for
    whatever reason you decide to go through on red, just accept any criticism
    you get from pedestrians trying to cross rather than trying to challenge
    them.
     
    John Benn, Sep 8, 2012
    #1
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  2. John Benn

    Danny Colyer Guest

    ITYF you're preaching to the converted here.
     
    Danny Colyer, Sep 8, 2012
    #2
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  3. John Benn

    Peter Keller Guest

    I like to take care everywhere.
    I always stop at red lights. However, I may walk through one (after
    stopping) if there is no traffic, pedestrians etc.
     
    Peter Keller, Sep 9, 2012
    #3
  4. John Benn

    John Benn Guest

    "Danny Colyer" wrote in message

    ITYF you're preaching to the converted here.
    =====================================

    If you're correct in that most readers think that jumping red lights is not
    advisable, then that's a good sign.
     
    John Benn, Sep 9, 2012
    #4
  5. While certainly not advisable, I occasionally go through red
    pedestrian lights when there are no pedestrians in sight.

    If stopped at red lights at a road junction, and an HGV pulls
    alongside, it is advisable for a cyclist to jump the red light by
    moving forward of the stop line until they are absolutely certain they
    can been seen by the HGV driver.
     
    Bertie Wooster, Sep 9, 2012
    #5
  6. John Benn

    John Benn Guest

    Who advises this? Certainly not the police and it is not mentioned in the
    Highway Code. Wouldn't it be better and more legal to delay setting off by
    a few seconds so that the HGV can get ahead of you?
     
    John Benn, Sep 10, 2012
    #6
  7. John Benn

    bugbear Guest

    Not if the HGV trailer swings in and crushes you first...

    BugBear
     
    bugbear, Sep 10, 2012
    #7
  8. No. To delay can be fatal: this is probably the reason why more female
    cyclists are killed by HGV drivers than male cyclists. Women tend to
    be more cautious than men; and men take more risks. Delaying in this
    situation is more risky, but may be perceived to be the cautious thing
    to do.

    If the HVG driver turns left, and they may well do so even if they are
    not signalling, the side of the HGV will move towards the cyclist as
    the lorry is turned. If there are railings the cyclist can be crushed;
    if the HGV is a construction vehicle without side rails, the cyclist
    can end up under the driver's wheels.
     
    Bertie Wooster, Sep 10, 2012
    #8
  9. In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Mon, 10 Sep 2012 09:51:43 +0100

    So you are saying an HGV driver who knows you are there because they
    pulled up alongside you rather than you alongside them will still turn
    across you?

    How many such crashes have there been?

    Zebee
     
    Zebee Johnstone, Sep 10, 2012
    #9
  10. John Benn

    Peter Clinch Guest

    In this case, "Bertie Wooster", but see below...
    "The police" covers an awful lot of bases and I don't think they have a
    single, considered POV on this, at least that I've seen. So it should
    be noted that "they won't advise you to" is not the same as "they'll
    advise you don't".

    Bertie is an accredited cycling instructor and as one myself I know that
    there are things we'll advise you that aren't in the Highway Code. So,
    for example, on page 12 of the Bikeability Scotland Level 2 Trainer's
    Guide (you can download your own copy from Cycling Scotland for free if
    you want) we have:
    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
    Safety Signals
    Safety signals should always be made and are used when the cyclist will
    cross the path of other road users and are thus vulnerable to any
    misunderstanding. If the cyclist cannot give a safety signal because it
    will affect control of the bike, they should delay the manoeuvre.

    Courtesy Signals
    Sometimes signals can impair rather than enhance safety, for example
    when turning left some drivers, themselves turning left, will attempt to
    overtake at the junction and cut across the cyclist’s path. Cyclists
    should be instructed to use their discretion, be courteous to others and
    signal if they can, but not if it compromises their own safety.
    Note that the difference between safety and courtesy signals is not
    mentioned in the Cyclist’s Guide to avoid confusion, but it can be
    useful for the trainer to explain this depending on the group’s level of
    understanding.
    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    You won't find that in the Highway Code. You won't be too hard pushed
    to find a policeman somewhere, including amongst RSOs, who says you
    should signal everything. But contrary to popular belief THC and "the
    police" aren't the final defining word on the matter, and amongst the
    (government sponsored and approved) cycle training community you'll get
    things different that have grown up as valid ways of staying safe
    amongst heavy traffic. More than once CTC has petitioned to have THC
    changed, or have proposed changes ditched, because they were actively
    dangerous to cyclists (roundabouts all the way around on the outside as
    being a Good Idea, for example).
    No, because however legal it is to get knocked off it's not a good idea.
    THC 72 says you shouldn't ride up the left of a left-turner, so if a
    left-turner (or potential left turner, no left signal might mean "I'm
    going ahead" or might mean "ICBA with indicators " or "my indicator's
    bust") makes the mistake for you it's in your own interest to get out of
    the way, rather than stay still in the way.

    Finally, note that if THC gave the last word on all matters of best
    practice on the roads then the police and IAM wouldn't be bothering with
    Roadcraft. But they do.

    Pete.
     
    Peter Clinch, Sep 10, 2012
    #10
  11. Yes. HGV divers can get distracted and forget that a cyclist is
    present before killing them.
    It would be difficult to determine.
     
    Bertie Wooster, Sep 10, 2012
    #11
  12. John Benn

    Peter Clinch Guest

    *Will* turn across you? Maybe yes, maybe no. Who knows? But if that
    does happen that's Bad News and by creating your own virtual ASL you
    remove the chance.

    Alternatively, before the HGV arrives and puts you in that situation you
    may be able to move sideways in to Primary and stop it happening. But
    there are times when you might end up thinking "damn, wish I'd been in
    Primary" and rather than sitting there thinking you've got it wrong and
    hoping the driver gets it right when the lights change, you could do
    something positive about it.

    Note that nobody has suggested setting off from the lights and
    continuing as if they weren't there.

    Pete.
     
    Peter Clinch, Sep 10, 2012
    #12
  13. It's hard to tell - if the cyclist is killed and there aren't other witnesses,
    there's no way to tell the difference between a careless cyclist who cycled
    up the inside of an HGV in a blind spot where they couldn't be seen even by
    an alert driver and a careless driver who pulled alongside a cyclist without
    noticing or forgot they were there before pulling away.

    But how many cyclists have been crushed by left-turning HGVs? Too many.

    http://road.cc/content/news/48523-l...-rises-16-and-yet-again-theres-lorry-involved
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...n-two-thirds-of-cyclist-deaths-in-London.html
    http://lydall.standard.co.uk/2011/1...yclist-killed-by-hgv-in-london-this-year.html
    http://twowheelsandbeyond.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/cyclists-leg-crushed-by-lorry-in-hit.html
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/woman-cyclist-is-crushed-to-death-by-lorry-turning-left-6391987.html
     
    Alan Braggins, Sep 10, 2012
    #13
  14. John Benn

    Phil Cook Guest

    Yes, the safest place to be at junctions is the centre of the lane
    primary position. By making your presence felt you discourage left
    hookers. If there is traffic waiting at a junction wait behind it in the
    primary position. Also assume nothing from the absence or otherwise of
    indicators from other road users.
     
    Phil Cook, Sep 10, 2012
    #14
  15. Or just move fast. Doesn't work for slow cyclists, but any moderately
    fit cyclist can surely get away from a junction before an HGV has
    even started to turn. (Of course, if they jump the lights, you have to
    notice and do it too...)
     
    Julian Bradfield, Sep 10, 2012
    #15
  16. But that might be preferable to the alternative.
     
    Bertie Wooster, Sep 10, 2012
    #16
  17. John Benn

    Adam Funk Guest

    Isn't it best to be in secondary position (at least --- or is it
    generally primary?) when you're the head of the queue at a red light?
     
    Adam Funk, Sep 10, 2012
    #17
  18. I think that primary position is best.
     
    Bertie Wooster, Sep 10, 2012
    #18
  19. John Benn

    Phil W Lee Guest

    Only one per victim.
     
    Phil W Lee, Sep 11, 2012
    #19
  20. John Benn

    Rob Morley Guest

    I think that smack in the middle of the lane is best, then nobody will
    be too sure about which side to try to squeeze past.
     
    Rob Morley, Sep 11, 2012
    #20
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